>Language Leadership (I actually gave up on this)

>I believe Ubuntu should take Language Leadership seriously and choose to embrace those languages which are lead by those who firmly believe in Free Software.

Including a language on our default desktop cd is a form of embracing the language and all that it stands for. Microsoft is clearly playing the leadership role when it comes to the creation of .NET and Novell is for all intensive purposes following their lead with Mono.

Yes. I reopened the can of worms hopefully for discussion for 8.10. I am looking for people to write logical points FOR and CON. I am also looking for someone who is impartial to do usability testing on photo applications and note taking applications.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/No-Mono-by-Default

16 thoughts on “>Language Leadership (I actually gave up on this)”

  1. >Nice to see that some one is taking action.

    I think that mono is only to help to push proprietary technologies like Silverlight. I couldn’t see any benefit from that.

    Vala would be a better choice for programs like Banshee and F-Spot.
    http://live.gnome.org/Vala

    It could be interesting if someone would rewrite these in Vala.

  2. >the so called mono foto app (F-Spot) which Ubuntu installs defauult is the first program I uninstall from my system. It consumes too much memory for my old PC! Further I have done no analysis, but I even prefer Picasa over F-Spot!

  3. >I am getting a little bit tired about this novel bashing. I can understand that a lot of people don’t like that they made the agreement with microsoft, but red hat didn’t do any better by settling out of court. Since the agreement was made a lot of companies have started looking at linux as a windows alternative, which they otherwise wouldn’t have. So i don’t really know what you mean with “firmly believe in linux” (probably have exactly the same view as you (talk about freedom…)).
    As for mono, many programs for windows can be more easily made available for linux then ever, and in this real world were living in a lot of programmers work in .NET (and really love it as far as i have heard). So besides FUD, have you got any real knowledge about patents-conflicts or anything like that (of course besides the 200+ linux has conflicts with for sure). And also, microsoft hasn’t always been the nicest company (and in some ways still isn’t), but they seem to be cooperating better then ever, and more importantly they have created same real nice techi stuff, so why aren’t they allowed to have a leadership role in something they created?

  4. >[..] choose to embrace those languages which are lead by those who firmly believe in Free Software

    Can you give an overview of all languages used in Free Software showing for each on if it is lead by people who firmly believe in Free Software?

    Can you give an overview of all Free Software showing the language each one is written in? Combining with the previous question, would this effectively give a list of programs you would reject/approve for default inclusion in Ubuntu?

    In what way would Ubuntu be ’embracing’ a language by including a program by default that happens to be written in it without including its development environment (e.g. compiler)?

    Including a language on our default desktop cd is a form of embracing the language and all that it stands for.

    This is not sound reasoning. You are first stating that Ubuntu should embrace certain languages. But then you are using the premise that Ubuntu should not embrace any other language. These are not equivalent.

    Same here. You state that including a Mono application on the default desktop means embracing the Mono platform. Whatever you mean by ’embracing’, some argumentation would be in place here.

    [..] Novell is for all intensive purposes following their lead with Mono.

    It is very onfortunate (to put it mildly) to make such suggestions without any further explanation whatsoever. Even on the Wiki page, there’s no background information to be found on which you could base this claim. In fact, I think there are examples that disprove it.

    I am looking for people to write logical points FOR and CON.

    That would be most helpfull, but I don’t think you’re doing it here so far.

    Let me add that I’m not an active Mono programmer, nor do I a priori reject the idea that maybe Mono should not be included by default. I do think however, that such a decision should be based on sound technological and ideological arguments and that claims used in the discussion should be backed up by facts.

  5. >@anonymous:

    Parts of Silverlight are released under the GPL-v3 compatible MS-PL license. Debian’s packaging wiki has some details. The Moonlight team is provided with the Silverlight test suite.

    Mircosoft gets a Linux (and embedded, and OS X, and..) Silverlight client. We get a web plugin with a first-class open-source implementation that just might kill flash, or at least spur development of a less second-class Linux client. We can but hope!

  6. >For 8.10? Won’t happen – we release in 11 days.

    You should change your post (and wiki page) to refer to 9.04, as that will be the first possible time it would get changed.

    Hobbsee
    (One of the members of the Ubuntu Release Team)

  7. >Hobbsee – Oops.. I meant to say 9.04…

    Damansion – I didn’t say a single word about patents, I can’t find your quote “firmly believe in linux” Novell does a lot of things that are downright amazing for Linux, AppArmor, Evolution, Compiz, Drivers for AMD/ATI, and their work on OpenOffice. Microsoft can have the leadership role, they deserve. I do not want Ubuntu following their lead.

    martijn – I think actions speak louder. If you follow my logic that Microsoft is the leader here. They didn’t release any part of .NET under an open license. Python, Perl, and others do. You might have a point that I should change how I word it. I would LOVE to see some evidence how Novell is not following their lead on this.

    raof – parts of Moonlight? or parts of Silverlight?

  8. >I would love to see such an independent review. From what I can tell thos apps were lobbied into GNOME (Tomboy) and Ubuntu (F-Spot) BECAUSE they were Mono apps, not because they did anythig revolutionary. Tomboy might actually be kinda neat, but doesn’t do anything THAT special. F-Spot is downright unusable (that’s what I want that usability review – WHO let that crap in?). And that is when it doesn’t crash…

    From my point of view, Mono does not bring anything to the table that we need. But the lobbyists are extremely loud (see Tomboy inclusion discussions on GNOME list – no actual reasons, just lots of shouting and made up numbers).

    Throw the crap out if all it does is play politics.

  9. >Nice initiative! I don’t think usage of Mono should be encouraged by providing the Mono runtime with every Ubuntu installation; but I can only back this up with some kind of “gut feeling” that Microsoft is not a trustworthy partner for basing one’s applications or desktop on.

    Apart from that more ideological point of view, I think that F-Spot is not good enough for the Ubuntu desktop – but unfortunately gthumb doesn’t seem to be much better either 🙁 IMO none of these applications would make an appropriate photo management tool for a casual computer user – they are both too complicated, ask too many questions, and leave too many unimportant decisions to the user. From the casual users I’ve introduced to F-Spot, none has used (or grasped?) the tagging feature; which means that essentially the photos were in a big heap that can at most be browsed through the whole thumbnail list or through the (pretty bad) time line. In comparison, IPhoto has some nice features that allow users to manage their photos without putting much time into it (but I think it could still be even better). So, if a contender for F-Spot comes up, I’m behind it.

  10. >@gQuigs:

    Parts of Silverlight are MS-PL (as are the parts of Moonlight taken from silverlight). Microsoft don’t make it easy to view the actual license (it’s contained within a 50MB SDK download that my capped internet won’t love), but from memory the test suite and some of the widget libraries are MS-PL.

    Not a part of Silverlight proper, but the Dynamic Language Runtime and associated silverlight hooks (that allow you to write Silverlight apps in Python or Ruby) are also MS-PL.

    Microsoft is a big company, and some (high up, vocal) parts don’t get open source. Some parts do get it, and the .NET team appears to be one of those parts.

  11. >I find it hilarious that, as a KDE user, the only two GNOME-ish apps I use regularly are Tomboy and F-Spot, and you’re arguing to remove them from a default GNOME installation.

    Rock on!

  12. >How about you stop tiptoeing around the issue, and just jump straight to the conclusion? The “BAN MONO!” one?

    Thin edge “this language si teh dangerz! lol!” with absolutely zero rationalization or realistic proposal gets you where, exactly?

    If you’re simply not able to understand ideas like immutable CLI versions or international standards, ask and I’ll explain them to you.

    And I can give you at least 8700 Ubuntu users who not only want as much Mono as they can get their hands on, but the latest versions too.

    Bear in mind that the “militantly free” distro GoBuntu ships Mono by default.

  13. >Actually, here’s my counter-proposal:

    Language Leadership should mean only including applications and libraries written to use reliable, standardized languages with interchangeable implementations. C and C++ and Fortran and C# can stay. Python gets binned.

    Good idea, no?

  14. >Please _STOP_ trolling on planet Ubuntu. It is against the CoC. Mono that is an ECMA standard is just that, an international standard and not to be worried about. The ability to tell a Windows developer that he can keep programming C# on Linux has actually caused quite a few developers to take a look at Linux that wouldn’t have before. If silverlight has an opensource equivalent (moonlight from mono anyone) then it isn’t “proprietary” anymore now is it?

    Sorry dude, but we need developers more than users. They get things done.

  15. >To make it clear: I’m not against Mono in the Ubuntu repos (not even in main), because it’s indeed a very slippery slope to “ban” languages, and I don’t want to go there. So, all Ubuntu users who want to use a Mono-based could _still_ get it installed through APT without any hassle (automatically installed when the install an app that requires Mono).
    But I think Ubuntu should not install Mono by default on every installation, as that encourages use of a framework that I don’t see as trustworthy.

    Before this is misunderstood: yes, that’s a highly subjective and “political” point of view. But it is not intended as trolling.

  16. >So you think Mono is good enough for formal support from Canonical, and for availability in the repositories, but somehow it fails some personal “trustworthiness” test for actual use in the default desktop because.. what exactly?

    Personally I don’t trust Python – that’s my professional opinion, based on its unreadiness for commercial use, and major compatibility issues with every update. Can I demand we remove Python from the default install, because I don’t think it’s trustworthy?

    Because, heaven forbid we should ask the question about what is or isn’t appropriate for the actual end-user apps, and what gives them the best end-user experience

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